Author of Whitewash- Carey Gillam

Episode #3 – Carey Gillam from the documentary, “The Monsanto Papers,” shares an in depth look of the growing controversy surrounding Monsanto.

Summary

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On this episode of Agrihood Radio, we’re talking with Carey Gillam, author of the very popular book, Whitewash.

Carey speaks in detail about her new book and her research into the controversy surrounding Monsanto.

Carey shares her experience of how she’s spent time with row crop farmers, ranchers, vegetable growers and orchard operators around the country. She has been invited inside high-tech laboratories, greenhouses and corporate offices of some of the largest U.S. agribusinesses. She has spent countless hours interviewing key U.S. regulators, lawmakers, and scientists.

With years of this behind-the-scenes reporting, Gillam has developed deep insight into the risks and rewards of the modern-day food system, and hopes to share that knowledge with others who care about the food they eat and feed their families.

It’s the pesticide on our dinner plates, a chemical so pervasive it’s in the air we breathe, our water, our soil, and even found increasingly in our own bodies. Known as Monsanto’s Roundup by consumers, and as glyphosate by scientists, the world’s most popular weed killer is used everywhere from backyard gardens to golf courses to millions of acres of farmland. For decades it’s been touted as safe enough to drink, but a growing body of evidence indicates just the opposite, with research tying the chemical to cancers and a host of other health threats.

In her book Whitewash, veteran journalist Carey Gillam uncovers one of the most controversial stories in the history of food and agriculture, exposing new evidence of corporate influence. Gillam introduces readers to farm families devastated by cancers which they believe are caused by the chemical, and to scientists whose reputations have been smeared for publishing research that contradicted business interests.

Carey tells about the arm-twisting of regulators who signed off on the chemical, echoing company assurances of safety, even as they permitted higher residues of the pesticide in food and skipped compliance tests. And, in startling detail, Gillam reveals secret industry communications that pull back the curtain on corporate efforts to manipulate public perception.

Enjoy today’s interview!

“I’ve always known I wanted to be a journalist, to build a career on the simple pursuit of truth. My work is based on the belief that by sharing information and ideas, airing debates, and unveiling actions and events critical to public policy, we help advance and strengthen our community — our humanity.”
-Carey Gillam

Listen to the podcast

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Transcript

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Brett: Hey, Carey. How are you?

Carey: I’m good, I’m good today.

Brett: Great. You said today, aren’t you good every day? What you’re doing right now, you need to go to bed at night saying, “You know what? I feel pretty darn good knowing that I’m making a difference in the world.” So my four-year old boy anytime anybody ask him, “Hey, Cash. How you doing?” He says, “Perfect.”

Carey: Oh, well, that’s a really good attitude. I will try to adopt that. A lot of stress and strain that comes with this job, that’s for sure.

Brett: And I can only imagine, and I emphasize the word only imagine. We have a lot to cover in a short amount of time because your schedule is overbooked, I get it, I got that. So let’s dive right into this with some specific bullet points. Whitewash – your awesome book was published back in October of 2017, is that correct?

Carey: That is right, yeah.

Brett: Then you have Erin Brockovich who supports your book and says very nice things about it. You were an investigative journalist for many, many years, so I have to ask you at what turning point does Whitewash become an idea?

Carey: And what do you mean by that?

Brett: Well, when did the concept of you writing a book called a Whitewash start to enter your …

Carey: Oh, I see. Gosh, I mean, I knew the title I guess I would say before I wrote one word of the book, because to me what whitewash means is covering up, right? It’s making something that looks clean or looks good, or something that actually is not clean or good but make it look that way to cover up something that is dirty or secret or deceptive or dangerous, and I covered Monsanto for 20-some years. I started in 1998 as a reporter for Reuters writing about food and agriculture, and Monsanto, and learning all about their products, their genetically engineered crops. And this chemical, glyphosate, roundup, and so over these years I became very familiar with the science surrounding this chemical and this pesticide and what it was doing to the environment, what it was doing to human health in terms of different studies that were coming out.

And it really became clear that Monsanto had been engaged in a really deceptive strategy for decades to whitewash the truth about this product, and that’s … again, I knew the name of the book before I actually knew what it was going to say specifically. But it was 20 years of research.

Brett: I was going to say, that’s a pretty lengthy process of researching it, and you gained access behind the doors of one of the largest companies in the world, Monsanto, and you flat-out say you actually got to like the people. Hugh Grant, the CEO, was a nice guy. You actually talk about this in the light of your interviews. You say that, and then things started to change.

Carey: Yeah, I mean, as part of my job at Reuters it was to cover Monsanto. I was in fierce competition with The Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg and others to be the first with news from inside this big company. So I got to know them and spend a lot of time with them and did sit down and talk with the president and CEO and head of marketing and head of international, global sales and things like that on a regular basis. And of course they’re nice people and they’re very smart people. Rob Fraley the head of chief technology officer, I really, really liked him.

And it’s not about liking people or not liking people, it’s about what the truth is and where the facts lead you. And as I began to find out that what they were saying didn’t necessarily translate to what was actually truthful, and what was really happening on the ground, the relationships I guess frayed a bit and they stopped wining and dining and started harassing and trying to discredit me. And they continue to do that to this day.

Brett: The wining and dining went to whining and crying. The thing is you got behind that you saw some things that weren’t on the up-and-up. If anybody has not seen the Monsanto’s Papers yet they need to check that out, that is a huge, huge eye-opener. Carey, you got to have a sense, wait a minute this something isn’t seeming on the up-and-up, there’s just something not right here, what was that first indication you got that things were not legit?

Carey: Well, it’s not very exciting, but back in the late 1990s, early 2000s Monsanto was trying to roll out Roundup ready wheat, another type of genetically engineered crop. They already had soybeans and corn, cotton, and things, and they wanted wheat to be genetically engineered, to be sprayed directly with their Roundup spray. And the farmers didn’t want it, they said, We don’t have trouble with weeds like maybe they do in corn and soybean fields. We don’t need that, we don’t want it, we don’t need it, no, thank you. And I watched over the course of a year and a half and went to all these meetings with farmers in Monsanto, and watch how Monsanto basically said, “We don’t care if you want it, you’re going that take.” They quite literally tried to shove this down their throats for the express purpose not of helping the farmer, not as helping to feed the world, but of boosting sales of Roundup and boosting their own bottom line.

And that to me became a really clear illustration of exactly what this company was all about. It wasn’t about agriculture, it wasn’t about helping farmers, it was surely simply about generating more hundreds of millions of dollars in profits.

Brett: And then you have … Is it Jess Roland failing to warn the consumers and regulators the risk about the glyphosate-based herbicide?

Carey: Yeah, and then you get into all of the documents that I’ve gotten, I don’t know, thousands of documents, Freedom of Information documents from EPA, USDA, and FDA, and internal communications, conversations between Monsanto and the regulators and others. And yeah, what this really shows you and what I lay out in the book is not only are they more concerned about their profits than they are about farmer needs, but they’re actively working to hide the risks and actively working to convince and sway regulators to do their bidding in essence, to try you make critical reviews of their chemicals go away and not matter, and try to just push their own propaganda.

And there are many different ways, there are front groups that they use, they ghostwrite scientific literature that they then present to regulators as proof of how fit their products are. We see a lot of money being funneled to specific people and professors and scientists who present themselves with independent of Monsanto, but in fact are getting money that they’re not disclosing, and then they go out and trumpet the safety of Monsanto’s products. There’s just, as I said you can fill a book with all of the different examples of the whitewashing and the deceptive tactics that have gone on. So it’s quite eye-opening.

Brett: As you’re explaining this, I watched the other documentary, The Devil We Know, you’ve heard of that one about the DuPont-Teflon.

Carey: DuPont, yes.

Brett: Okay, so I’m listening to you talk about Monsanto, and I’m feeling the same way I felt about as I watch the documentary the devil we know about DuPont and Teflon, it’s like do these large corporations just not give a damn about anybody except themselves and their bottom line and put the human being at the cost of the expense of them making more money? I mean, is it that simple, Carey?

Carey: It really is. I think it really is that simple. It’s outrageous, it’s heartbreaking, people died as a result of it. I mean, certainly this is, you see that in the DuPont situation with what they were dumping into the waterways. But it goes back … I recently been rereading a lot of the tobacco litigation and how the secrets of the tobacco industry came into the public spotlight, and you see this, again, with powerful industries when there are billions of dollars at stake, it is common strategy to figure out how to hide the science, to silence and harass scientists and journalists and lawyers and others, anybody who threatens the bottom line is a target. And we saw that with tobacco industry, we saw with DuPont, we see it with Monsanto, it’s all about profit over people. And as I said it’s a heartbreaking story that keeps on being repeated within different industries and different products.

Brett: And the more you went on, the more you dug, the deeper you dug, the more you found out, were you thinking to yourself, is there a point … does that drive you, is that a motivating force that keeps you wanting to find out more or are you thinking, man, I don’t know if I’m get myself into deep here, and I just got to kind of weigh this all out – did any of that go through your head?

Carey: Well, no, I mean, as a journalist as someone who’s … I’ve done investigative journalism my whole career, I’ve had a lot of times investing banking shenanigans, but no, I mean, you just want more, you want more and more and more, and you want to pull threads and read documents and I’ve spent countless nights and pre-dawn hours reading documents and trying to connect the dots and the conversations and who’s doing what with whom and where’s the money trail lead you. And it’s certainly as I said the industry has been out for blood, they’ve been trying to attack me and harass and discredit me every way they can, and that does get discouraging, but you can’t stop, you can’t walk away.

Brett: Right, so you never got to it. I understand the business aspect of it, but never got to a personal threat against your life or your family, harm, anything like that?

Carey: Not specifically, “We’re going to come and kill you,” but I’ve definitely gotten threats, I’ve gotten late-night emails threatening harm that will come, but not specifically death, but just harm. I mean, there have been alarming moments, I’ve looked over my shoulder and kept my doors locked, and we’ve had security at a few events where I speak. But it isn’t just me. I mean, the Monsanto and their new owner Bayer, there are scientists around the world that had been warning about this chemical for years, and I think the public is finally because of all of this starting to come into the spotlight, the public is becoming aware and they’re not going to be able to keep this secret forever. The secrets are coming to life.

Brett: And then I was watching … I’m sorry, not watching, I was sitting the other day poolside talking to a farmer who was from Iowa.

Carey: A farmer by a pool.

Brett: Yeah, they’re down in … we’re actually traveling right now, we’re doing on a cooking show circuit, so we have some time, we’re down in Southern Texas and the weather’s been nice. I’m sitting by the pool and the farmer came by and he had a seed hat on, and I recognized that as a farming hat, I asked him about it and he said, “Yes, I’m a farmer.” And I started talking with him and I asked him some pretty good questions, because as you know or may not know my wife and I are looking for an Agrihood, a farm-to-table community to raise our son in. So I’m doing my due diligence, researching, and in that research I hear a lot, learn a lot, and I have to ask questions, I said so you’re a farmer, yes, he asked me if I’m a farmer I said no, but I studied like one. And then I asked him, I said, “Are you familiar with the Monsanto product?” He says, “Oh, yeah, I’ve used it for several years, but what I’m finding out now is that the crops are becoming resilient to the glyphosate, the Roundup. And he had flat out said that the sales of Roundup are dropping considerably. Have you heard that?

Carey: Well, yes, I mean, this is one of the problems, they’re both environmental problems as well as health problems associated with this product, and I write about both in the book. But the environmental problems are that it doesn’t work anymore. I mean, it just doesn’t work, because Mother Nature adapts. and the weeds that this has been poured on for decades now have become resistant, we now have over a hundred million acres in the United States alone of weeds that scientists have found to be resistant to Roundup or glyphosate. And so this is a real problem for farmers of course, even if they’re not worried about the health effects of it. If it doesn’t work like it used to, that’s a problem for them.

And so what we’ve seen over the years is a lot of farmers have tried to use more, so they’ll use twice as much or three times as much. And now we’re seeing them combine these products glyphosate and Roundup products with other herbicides, so this has created a treadmill in one country through this awful pesticide treadmill that farmers have a hard time getting off of where they’re just using more and more, and the weeds become more resistant so they use more and more and more again. And our USDA is trying to come up with a solution to this, the companies as well, it’s becoming a real problem in foreign country.

Brett: It is. Let’s talk about this for a second, Dr. Peter Infante, the epidemiologist, was kicked off the advisory panel. Can you elaborate on that for us a little bit?

Carey: Yeah, this was just another example of the power I guess that Monsanto has to hold sway over the EPA. This was the fall of 2016, right? Do I have my dates right? Yes, fall or winter of 2016. And the Environmental Protection Agency was holding a scientific advisory panel to bring in scientists, leading scientists from around the country and help the EPA understand its assessment to glyphosate and if it was looking at glyphosate correctly. And Peter Infante is leading epidemiologist, one of the leading epidemiologists in the world.

And the EPA invited him to be on this scientific advisory panel, and he said yes. And Monsanto said no. We do not want him on the scientific advisory panel. We are afraid of what he might say. And they had their lobbying group, CropLife, write very angry emails to the EPA, and lo and behold the EPA kicked Peter Infante off the panel, although they did not admit and they never have that it had anything to do with Monsanto or Roundup. And in fact, what they did at the meeting when the meeting was actually held and press members asked about it, they said, “Well, Peter Infante just wasn’t available, turned out he wasn’t available.” Well, Peter Infante showed up at the meeting and said, “Well, I actually was available.” It was a little dramatic show. But that’s just one example; there are many more of how Monsanto has asked the EPA to do certain things for them and have had those which is granted to the benefit of product sales.

Brett: Same company that created Agent Orange.

Carey: Monsanto was one of the major manufacturers and distributors of Agent Orange.

Brett: Right, and then they are associated with many food labels out there. And they go on record in saying that their glyphosate is safer than table salt, and that got kicked out, banned from … they weren’t allowed to say that anymore in New York, but they still say that to every other state in the country, they’re allowed to say that, that it’s safer than table salt. My head spins.

Carey: Well, yeah, I mean, this is part of their argument that this is the safest herbicide that’s been brought to market, which in many respects it was a lot safer than other herbicides farmers were using. There are some that are quite toxic and quite deadly on an acute basis, there’s one called Paraquat that if you’re exposed to it, if you get a little few drops on your tongue you’ll be dead within weeks, Roundup wasn’t like that, so it was safer for farmers, and Monsanto made a lot of that in its marketing campaigns. But of course, they’ve always maintained that it’s not carcinogenic, where there’s a great body of scientific evidence that it is carcinogenic. There’s also evidence that indicates that it is really reproductive problems in people and can result in bad birth outcomes and things like that.

But there’s no denying that one of the main problems with all of this is that Monsanto pushed Roundup use so aggressively that it became the most widely used herbicide in the world. And it’s now pervasive, it’s in our food, our water, our government is documented it in air samples and surface water samples, they documented glyphosate residues in rainfall. You find it in just hundreds of different food product. It’s pervasive in our lives, it’s found in human urine quite commonly. So things perhaps we wouldn’t be worrying so much if there’s been better stewardship, if there’d been more restricted use, if it had been treated more like the toxic chemical that it is. Certainly there are a lot of toxic chemicals that are used in our lives.

The problem is when you hide the risk, you trumpet the rewards and you hide the risks, you whitewash the risk. This is a crime in my view or the deception of the people who are exposed to this.

Brett: Yeah. Right and you have Scott Partridge on record saying in a phone interview that it would be remarkable if Monsanto could manipulate the EPA under the Obama administration saying, “If I can kill this I should get a gold medal.” These are all types of … That was Roland saying that. I mean, there are all types of documents saying that, yet there really is not much of a punishment, right? There are no consequences to their actions.

Carey: There are no consequences. I mean, yes, you see, Jesse Roland is the EPA official who led the cancer assessment review committee within the EPA, and determined that there was no issue with glyphosate. When he talked about if I kill this I should get a medal, that was in reference to a different government agency, the ATSDR which is part of helping human services, and that agency said it was going to do a review of glyphosate. Monsanto said, “Gosh, no, we don’t want that to happen.” And they went to EPA; they went to their friends at EPA and said, “Can you make this go away basically?” And they did make it go away.

We have the emails that show how it very quickly they jumped when Monsanto called and got busy, and eventually the ATSDR agreed to drop its review of glyphosate. So again, many different examples, that’s just one of them. They’ve done this time and time and time again.

Brett: Have you seen any … In all your years of doing this, have you seen progress for the human or for the general public as far as them being not … I mean, I know awareness is the first step, when people become more aware they can … Here’s the thing I really want to emphasize – once we know better, then we can begin to do better, and then we can begin to achieve better. So by you being on this call and doing the work you’re doing right now, when your head hits the pillow at night and I know you have a headache every night, I get it, I know you do. But there has to be, Carey, a sense of reward knowing that what you’re doing is for the greater cause. And it has to be fulfilling. So are you seeing progress in our favor as a general public in all this?

Carey: I mean, yeah, I mean, definitely there are measures popping up all over the country where cities and townships and school districts and others are saying, “We’re not going to have these pesticides sprayed on our school grounds anymore.” You’re seeing that all over the place. And different states, at state levels you’re seeing people talk about parks and playgrounds, people in their neighborhoods are telling their landscapers don’t be spraying this on my ground anymore. The communities in Florida are starting to be aware of what it’s doing to waterways where it’s being sprayed on weeds around lakes and things like that.

So I’ve seen a great outpouring. And the message I’m hoping that convey is if we make glyphosate Monsanto go away you don’t solve the problem, so let’s just be aware of that, let’s not just … Monsanto is the poster child for a much bigger problem, and that is unchecked indiscriminate use of pesticides in our food production system and in our landscape. So we need to be aware of the risks as well as of rewards, we need to be educated. And yes, and if people who are concerned about this, you need to go and take action, and that’s what you’re seeing around the country with these people.

Now, it’s worth noting that in Washington you’ve had the chemical industry try to pass laws that would negate local laws, again would nullify any local efforts to do this. So again, it’s a battle. They are battling.

Brett: Can’t large corporations who want to provide people healthier choices; a lot of packaging now says non-GMO, great. Well, can’t they add something that says no glyphosate and a symbol for that? Is it difficult to get that done?

Carey: I mean, Monsanto doesn’t want … What they’ve done … I mean, if you remember back in the 2000’s, again, Monsanto was marketing a bovine growth hormone basically for dairy farmers to give their cattle, their dairy cows to make them produce more milk. And that seemed like a great idea, until it turned out that it was giving the dairy cows illnesses and …

Brett: Tumors.

Carey: … and inflamed, right. And it caused all sorts of problems and people were worried about the hormone transferring to the milk, etcetera, so people wanted to market their milk as free of this hormone. And Monsanto’s throw a fit, heck no. So litigated over that, so there’s a lot of litigation and threats and things about how you label. Obviously and the FDA has to weigh in on that. But yeah, I mean, people are trying to move to glyphosate-free, certified glyphosate-free, pesticide-free. This is why you’re seeing more organic sales, when you’re seeing organic sales grow. People are worried about pesticides in their foods, and I think we should be.

If you look at FDA data which I lay a lot of that out on the book as well, if you look at FDA data about pesticide residues in foods, it’s really unappetizing I guess is the way to say it. 85% of fruits and vegetables generally are carrying pesticide residue, big bowl of strawberries you think would be so healthy is laden with insecticides, I mean, in large sizes. It’s not a good thing.

Brett: No. So you’re up there in Kansas, correct? State of Kansas.

Carey: I’m based in Kansas, farm country.

Brett: Right, I was going to say that’s pretty much farm country right there. So are you seeing a transformation up there in your area as far as people growing healthier, more organic crops as farmers?

Carey: Yeah, I mean, now still, I mean, we got we got miles and miles and miles as far as you can see of row crops and wheat and corn and things like that. And for many of those farmers they’re sticking to conventional, to pesticides. But you are seeing a growing number of farmers who are moving away from it, and there’s a group of farmers in the Midwest they call themselves the Idea Network, and they are exploring all sorts of different strategies to try to grow food without such heavy used of pesticide and pesticide-free if they can. And they’ve got a little money from USDA, and they’re partnering with universities. And so people are doing that.

And just today, the founder of Blue Apron, one of the cofounders of Blue Apron, the home meal deliveries, announced that he’s launching something called Cooks Venture which is a large organic farming operation essentially with operations in Oklahoma and all around. And he really wants to make this sort of a big player too, because organic is more than just about a label or a marketing technique or reduced pesticides, it’s also about more sustainability, it’s about carbon capture, it’s about animal welfare, it’s just about a better balance to help us have a healthier future. And I think that’s what we all want for our children.

So people are learning, people are growing, people are doing things, and I think that’s really admirable and important.

Brett: It is, and I’m not sure if I heard you say this, I heard it and made it might have been you, that back when Monsanto first started bringing this Roundup out and they wanted to bring it to the public, they had to obviously had to be tested and the mice were tested and then the mice were dying, several mice were dying over and over again. Monsanto turns in their report and saying here’s our report, the mice are dying. And then the EPA says, “Well, wait a minute, I’m not sure we can …” Was it EPA that said hold on a second, slow down with your product here, and retest it. And Monsanto says, “No, the hell with it. We’re not retesting it. We’re going. This is what we’re going to do and we’re going to re-launch it anyway,” is that kind of the gist of it?

Carey: That’s the gist of it, yeah. I lay that out in my book with the 1983 Mouse Study or Keynesian Hogan, but, right, yeah, I mean, this was a very big long two-year study on 400 mice, and they handed over to the EPA. And the EPA toxicologist looked at it and said, “Wow, this is … like it causes cancer, because all these mice are getting tumors, except for the mice that weren’t dosed with glyphosate.” And Monsanto basically said, “No, you’re looking at it wrong, let us tell you how to look at it.” And they got into a little bit of a battle and the EPA scientist said, “It’s not our job to protect you, it’s our job to protect the public.”

I mean, there was an effort back in the 80s from EPA scientists to try to battle back against Monsanto. But Monsanto prevailed. They were able to maneuver in a whole lot of different ways there that I lay out the book, and they were able to actually convince EPA supervisors to overturn their own scientists.

Brett: It goes back to what I said earlier, you have a company who created Agent Orange, then they come up with Roundup, then they test it on the mice, the mice are dying, then are associated with major food labels. In my opinion, that’s not somebody who I want making … have anything to do with my food. Okay, this lets us say that. So how can people find you? Let’s talk about that, how can they follow you and then support you and learn more about what you’re doing? Because you’re doing a lot, a lot of great things.

Carey: Well, thank you, that’s nice. Twitter, like for social media, I guess, I’m on Twitter quite a bit. I share documents that I find and scientific studies and just news and things like that, people who are interested in this topic. And then I do research right now for US Right to Know, nonprofit group, little teeny tiny nonprofit, we could use donations, but that’s where I file Freedom of Information Act requests with different agencies. I’ve had to sue the EPA twice now to get documents. I’ve won both of those lawsuits, thank goodness. But yeah, US Right to Know, usrtk.org, we post documents on our website; we share them with journalists and whomever wants to see them.

Free access, so we’re just trying to be informative to the public about our food system, and trying to just do work to protect us all. I’ve got three kids, I want them to grow up healthy and have a healthy future.

Brett: They have a responsible mother, Carey. And before we let you go I have to ask you this – now you with all your knowledge and information, everything you know behind the scenes, documents, the cover-ups, the book, when you go shopping you obviously have a different view of the food you’re providing your family, so the people listening right now who had no clue, who only maybe had heard about this and through hearsay, now they’ve heard it from you, somebody who has the research and the reputation, what simple steps can they take today, not tomorrow, today, right now and the next time they go grocery shopping to start providing their families healthier foods as you’re doing?

Carey: Oh, my … well, processed foods are the devil’s work, right?

Brett: Amen.

Carey: I think we all know that. For me having read the FDA reports which I do every year when they come out and you see how high and how prevalent pesticide residues are in fruits and vegetables in particular, so I try to be very careful when I buy fruits and vegetables to buy organic, and that’s very important to me. And I try to do the same with milk and eggs and meat, but not everybody can do that, so I think if you just want to make a choice – buy organic strawberries for sure, your berries, your vegetables, as I’m saying these things that we feed our kids. And oatmeal in particular, gosh, oatmeal is terrible because of the defecation. Educate yourselves and then make food choices as best as you can, I guess. I don’t ever like tell people what to do, that’s not my job.

Brett: No, but sharing information how to take better care of yourself, that’s what you’re doing right now. So is there anywhere on your site they can find suggestions?

Carey: Again, we don’t tell people what to do, we don’t make suggestions. We just provide the data and the documents. So our US Right to Know, there’s a whole array of different things. And boy, if you see what’s going on with the beverage industry and the CDC, that’s a whole another thing, to see how closely connected Coca-Cola and our Center for Disease Control is on obesity and diabetes issues, and so things like that you can find at our website, just information to help make good choices.

Brett: Perfect. That’s great. Educated decisions. Thank you again, Carey. We appreciate your time, and love to have you back with some further updates. I love to get more information about that, that we just touched upon, the sugar because sugar is one of the biggest immune suppressors in society, in the world, and we put it in our bodies on a regular basis. That needs to have some light shine on as well. So thank you again. Let’s get you back on the show in the future, get back to do what you do best, go kick Monsanto in the ass, we all appreciate that.

Carey: Thanks for having me on. Thank you so much.

Brett: Have a great day, we love ya! Thank you.

Carey: All right, you too. Bye.

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